Asgore vs The Dragon King (Undertale vs The Cruel King and the Great Hero)
Asgore, the Monster King of the Underground from Undertale.
Dragon King, the Cruel King from The Cruel King and The Great Hero.
After facing defeat in a war against humanity, these two monster kings changed, for better or for worse. Will the king of the Underground be able to slay the Dragon King, or will the Dragon King give Asgore a cruel fate? Also, they're not alone. Join us, as we will find out who will win a Death Battle!
Before we begin, here are the sources we will use:
Undertale by Toby Fox
The Cruel King and The Great Hero by Nippon Ichi Software and NIS America
Some other sources we used are:
- Asgore's Vs. Battles Wiki Page
- Monster Physiology Page from Vs. Battles Wiki
- The Dragon King's Vs. Battles Wiki Page
- The Undertale Wiki
- Vs. Battles Wiki's Undertale Calcs
- SacredStar's Paper Mario vs Yuu blog (And some of their calcs)
Now that this is out the way, let's get it!
Background
Asgore Dreemurr
Long ago, two races ruled over Earth: HUMANS and MONSTERS. One day, war broke out between the two races. After a long battle, the humans were victorious. They sealed the monsters underground with a magic spell. The monsters lived underground for a long time, and their king was Asgore Dreemurr. Asgore had lived a happy life. He had a loving wife, Toriel, and a loving child, Asriel. However, everything changed when Asriel returned to them with a human child named Chara. Originally, things were ok, with the Dreemurr family adopting and looking after Chara, ensuring they're safe in the Underground. However, once an attempt at making pie with buttercups (don't blame Chara and Asriel for it, they were children) had poisoned Asgore, Chara had an idea. They would eat buttercups and sacrifice themselves, letting Asriel absorb their soul, cross the barrier, collect six more human souls, and break the barrier. Naturally, the plan failed, and Asriel returned to the Underground before turning into dust and dying, leaving the Underground devoid of hope and having their future taken away by humans.
In a fit of rage, Asgore declared war, saying that he would destroy any human that came into the Underground, use their souls to become godlike, free the monsters from their prison, destroy humanity, and let monsters rule in the surface in peace. While the people's hopes returned, Toriel was disgusted by Asgore's actions, leaving Asgore and running to a place where she would never be seen again, leaving Asgore alone. However, deep down, Asgore never wanted power, or to hurt anyone. He just wanted to give his people hope again, and as time passed, six human souls were collected. Then we cut to 20XX, where the eighth human child would fall into the Underground. The child was named Frisk, and they would eventually reach the king, with his fate and the fate of everyone in the Underground lying on Frisk's shoulders.
In the Pacifist Route, after fighting and pacifying Asriel, who became a god (it's a long story), Asriel broke the barrier, allowing all the monsters to leave the Underground and go to the surface. In the Neutral Route, after being defeated by Frisk, he would die (either by Frisk or Flowey), and after Frisk defeats Omega Flowey, they would leave the Underground, leaving the monsters trapped. In the Genocide Route, Frisk kills every monster in the Underground, including Asgore himself, leaving the Underground barren and a former shell of what it once was. No matter the route and ending, Asgore's internal suffering through his past actions would come to an end, with him either getting a chance at redemption, or his suffering ending with his life.
The Dragon King
Long ago, the world was nearly brought to its knees by a Demon King with terrifying power. Joined by other monsters, the Demon King invaded the land of the humans. The humans had fought back, but they were no match for the monsters. The humans believed that they wouldn't survive. Having lost all hope, they were prepared for their ruin. But then, in one town, a young man rose up against the Demon King. After a long and hard-fought battle, the hero had cornered the Demon King. Both were wounded, but the hero mustered his strength for a final strike against his desperate rival. The Hero's sword shone a bright pink in his hands as he swung his sword down... and sliced off the Demon King's horn, weakening him instead of ending his life.
As time passed and the hero tended to the Demon King's wounds, the humbling experience led to the Demon King and the hero becoming friends, which didn't sit well with some of the monsters. However, one day on Demon King Mountain, the Demon King saw the hero approach him in a critically wounded state, carrying his newborn daughter in his arms. After agreeing to take care of the hero's daughter, the hero passed away, knowing that his daughter would be safe in the Demon King's hands. To protect the girl from the Demon King's past, he changed his name to Dragon King and soon, the girl was given a name: Yuu. The Dragon King raised Yuu and told her stories about her father, which inspired her to become a great hero, with him training her so she could achieve her dream one day.
However, unbeknownst to Yuu, for her to become a great hero, the Demon King would have to die (at least, that's what Dragon King thought had to happen), and after revealing himself as the Demon King, forcing her to fight him and letting her defeat him, he closed his eyes and prepared for his end... only for Arthur, the spider monster and the one who killed Yuu's biological parents to stop Yuu from landing the final blow, critically wounding her, reattaching the Demon King's horn, and starting the Dragon King's transformation back into his old self. After Yuu recovered from the fatal wound (thanks to a magic trial), she returned to Demon King Mountain and defeated Arthur and the Demon King. When the Demon King was defeated, the Dragon King was able to regain his senses, and begged Yuu to kill him, only for Yuu to do what her dad did and slice off his horn. After a heart-to-heart, the Dragon King realized his mistake of nearly forcing Yuu to fend for herself, and after they finished crying, they flew back home. The Cruel King had died and was replaced with a benevolent king, one who would work hard to bring coexistence between humans and monsters, thanks to the hero of the past, and the hero that is his daughter. The End.
Experience and Intelligence
Asgore Dreemurr
Asgore led an entire species of monsters through war and ruled over them, so he had to have had some intelligence to do this. He also seems to have mastery over weapons, as he was able to train Undyne in combat.
The Dragon King
Like Asgore, The Dragon King was able to rule over an entire species of monsters, so he had to have some intelligence. However, he becomes a mindless, rage-filled monster when he's the Demon King (More on that later).
Equipment
Asgore Dreemurr
Trident and Armor
For battle, Asgore dons his armor and wields a magic trident. With his trident, he can do massive slashes, including using blue and orange attacks. He was able to perform his most legendary feat: DESTROYING THE MERCY BUTTON.
The Human SOULS
Asgore has 6 human souls. He only needed one more to break the barrier. These souls are EXTREMELY powerful, as when absorbed, a monster will become UNSTOPPABLE, as Determination is put into them. Even ONE human soul has enough power to match the Underground. However, a monster's body cannot handle a human soul. (See before verdict)
The Dragon King
Nothing lol.
Powers/Abilities
Asgore
Fire Magic
Just like all monsters, he has access to magic, but in the form of fire. He can shoot it from his hands, create lines of it to shoot, rain a barrage of fireballs, encircle targets, and do...this (idk what to call it).
Soul Manipulation
Again, like normal monsters, their magic attacks the soul, which in verse, is the essence of one's being.
Limited Durability Negation
As mentioned before, a monster's magic affects the soul but is still affected by conventional durability.
Blue and Orange Attacks.
When Asgore has his trident, he can perform Blue and Orange attacks. What are those? They aren't like normal attacks that damage you. When you get hit with Blue, if you don't move, it doesn't damage you, while with Orange, if you move, it doesn't damage you. You can probably guess what happens if you do the opposite for both.
Empathic Manipulation
...Yeah...So, as you see above, when the battle against Frisk started, he destroyed the mercy button to force them to fight him. Also, ngl pretty badass.
The Dragon King
Flight
Being a dragon and all, he can indeed fly...
Storybooks
Bite
In battle, he can bite his opponents with those chompers of his.
Breath
Tail
Again, simple. He just charges his tail up and whacks it into his target.
His Horn
Buffs to power and previous abilities
With his horn back, he can transform back into The Demon King, in which he gains a buff in strength and durability and gains new abilities.
- Breath (New): The Demon King launches a fast-moving fireball at the target, which does the same thing as his normal Breath.
- Dark Miasma: He inflicts you with multiple status effects. Those are:
- Chilled (causes the opponent to freeze, or in-game lose a turn)
- Sticky (causes the opponent to become slower, lose a turn, and makes them take more damage), and
- Poison (makes opponents take damage over time.).
- Dark Blade: He summons four shadow energy blades to go into a target. It inflicts Seal, which power nullifies opponents, or in the game, stops you from using Special Moves.
- Triple Headbutt: Self-explanatory, as he headbutts you 3 times. However, he also inflicts Seal.
- Agony: With a roar, buffs his strength, speed, and durability.
- Berserk: With another roar, this buffs his speed MASSIVELY.
- Roar of Rage: He flies into the air at rapid speed and delivers a devastating blast of fire (Has a chance of inflicting Seal, which prevents opponents from using their special abilities).
Critical Hits
Sometimes, any hits you land could be a critical hit, which ignores your durability. Treasure Cats have the highest durability in the game, but if you land a critical hit, you can just bypass their durability, dealing normal damage like you would with any other opponent. This doesn't just apply to the Dragon King, but his army as well. Speaking of armies...
Armies
Asgore
The Monsters
Asgore has PLENTY of monsters he rules over. They can range from frogs to fish, to skeletons, you name it! And yes, I will list them all by also saying their most significant abilities.
Froggit: Just your regular ol' frog. He sends flies to attack and jumps at you
Whimsun: Weak monster. Sends moths to attack.
Moldsmal: Looks like gelatin...but...does one attack.
Napstablook: A very shy ghost. He uses his tears to attack. Also, if he busts out Dapperblook, he is about to solo everyone /j
Vegetoid: A very freaky vegetable that uses vegetables to attack. EAT YOUR VEGETABLES.
Migosp: Uses cockroaches to attack. It can also hit a pretty neat dance.
Loox: IS THAT MIKE WAZOWSKI??? But anyway, it shoots ring-like lasers to attack.
Snowdrake: A snow...bird dude that uses crescent-like projectiles that curve in certain directions.
Chilldrake: Basically, just Snowdrake but cooler.
Ice Cap: A small snowman-type creature that has a pretty sweet ice hat. It summons pipes to shoot ice spikes. It also can make waves of ice(?).
Jerry (ew): Jerry...is mid. He also does NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Gyftrot: A reindeer-like creature that uses snow to attack. It also summons presents to do a blue attack.
Glyde: A stingray-looking thing that shoots shuriken projectiles in many directions. Also, summons bigger ones that say slang words...?
Aaron: A literal seahorse with BIG muscles. It uses muscles and sweat to attack...ew.
Woshua: Some type of fishtank-looking creature (it may or may not be based on OMOCAT). It uses water and soap to attack.
Shyren: She is a fish-like monster that uses her singing as an attack.
Mad Dummy: A very pissed-off training dummy. Uses cotton balls, other dummies, robot dummies, and a knife to attack.
Temmie: Temmie is quite interesting. It uses itself and its elongated limbs to attack.
Moldbygg: It's basically Moldsmal but better. It makes smaller versions to attack and uses bullet projectiles to attack.
Vulkin: A sweet little volcano that uses lava to attack!
Tsunderplane: It may or may not like you. It uses planes to attack, along with smoke.
Pyrope: Literally a walking fireball dude. It uses fireballs and bombs to attack.
Muffet: The spider girl herself! Uses spiders and her baked goods to attack! She also has a giant spider pet to eat her foes!
Madjick: A witch that uses crazy magic attacks! Uses chaser orbs to pursue the target and uses crosses to attack.
Knight Knight: A knight dude with a crazy body design. It summons the moon to shower meteors and summons the sun to fire solar flares.
Final Froggit: Basically, Froggit but better. Faster and stronger.
Whimsalot: Whimsum but actually strong. Uses butterflies to attack.
Astigmatism: Loox but stronger and creepier. Shoots more orb lasers.
Important Members:
Doggo: A blind dog who is part of the royal guard. He uses his knives to attack. Only uses blue attack.
Lesser Dog: A small little dog knight who uses dogs and spears to attack. Oh, and he is part of the royal guard.
Dogamy and Dogaressa: The dog couple themselves. They use hearts and giant axes to attack. Part of the royal guard.
Greater Dog: A giant dog knight who is part of the royal guard. He uses dogs and a flickering blue spear to attack.
Papyrus: IT IS THE GREAT PAPYRUS HIMSELF. A happy and jolly skeleton that uses bone attacks. He can also affect the soul by making it blue, which means giving it gravity!
Undyne: Captain of the royal guard. She is a fish lady who uses spears to attack! Whenever things get desperate, she can access her Undying form, in which she gets a boost in strength, durability, and speed.
Mettaton (EX): A robot created by Dr. Alphys. He mainly is a show robot, in his attacks are different every time. He uses robots, lasers, disco balls, you name it! He also has his Mettaton NEO form, in which he gets a boost in power while sacrificing his defense. Though, we never get to see him attack...
Royal Guards: The two royal guards who are now a happy couple! They use falling projectiles and star attacks!
Dragon King
The Monsters
Like Asgore, The Dragon King rules over many Monsters, including rabbits, foxes, goats, and more. We will mention them and add a short description for them.
Raccoon: A basic forest animal that bites and calls for help. Also helps give Yuu Disgaea scaling.
Sno Raccoon: Racoon but cooler. It also is a little stronger and can freeze targets.
Gloomy Raccoon: Racoon but gloomier. It is stronger and loves TO SPAM CALL FOR HELP (GRAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OOH I HATE EM I HATE EM -MegaGojiraGX).
Rabbitrouser: Rabbit with carrot sword. It can jump high distances to slam down and deal more damage.
Rabbit Familiar: Rabbitrouser but with a trident instead of a carrot sword. It is also EVEN STRONGER.
Moss Toad: Frog-like monster covered in moss that could heal from sunlight. Uses its tongue to attack.
Hunee Toad: Moss Toad but stickier. It can inflict Sticky.
Toxic Toad: Moss Toad but poisonous. It can inflict Poison.
Sno Bug: A cotton-like monster made of ice that could freeze you.
Mini Bat: Sno Bug that went through a bat phase.
Icicle Stagg: Deer-like monster with horns of ice. It can charge through targets to freeze them.
Magma Oxx: Icicle Stagg but hotter. When running through opponents, it burns them.
Harvest Stagg: Icicle Stagg but plantier.
Snoball Hootie: Small owl monster. It can flap its wings to create gusts of wind to freeze.
Stealthy Hootie: Snoball Hootie but stealthier. It can create gusts of wind to burn.
Hunee Pot: Monster with hunee in a jar-like body that can heal others. Once it heals, it dies. (rip)
Golden Beetle: Hunee Pot that looks fancier. And is stronger.
Barbaric Antgobbler: Anteater monster that eats bugs and hunee. Its lick ability causes the opponent to get dizzy.
Scorching Antgobbler: Barbaric Antgobbler but hotter and stronger. Its lick ability causes opponents to burn and get dizzy.
Bandit Antgobbler: Barbaric Antgobbler but emo-looking.
Flower Head: Flower monsters who love to dance. It can also heal itself with sunlight.
Carmine Head: Flower Head but hotter (pause). When it hits opponents, it burns.
Dragon's Cradle: Sleeping dragon baby monster as hot as lava. Once it's ready, it unleashes a devastating burning attack.
Fire Seapony: A seahorse monster with fire. When it sings, it burns opponents.
Sno Seapony: Fire Seapony but cooler. It can also create massive snowstorms. When it sings, it freezes opponents.
Toxic Seapony: Fire Seapony but poisonous. Same as before, but when it sings, it poisons opponents.
Forest Seapony: Fire Seapony but nature-themed. When it sings, it causes sunlight to appear which damages opponents.
Fiery Lizzerd: Lizard that breathes fire and slams their heads into you. It is as hot as fire.
Wild Fiery Lizzerd: Fiery Lizzerd but wilder. It evolves from Firey Lizzerds after the Demon King's appearance. Its fires become hotter than the sun.
Rock-Eating Lizzerd: Fiery Lizzerd with a rock diet.
Largemouth Magma: Large fire slime monster. It crunches down on opponents and can rain a barrage of fireballs on them. It inflicts burn.
Largemouth Slime: Largemouth Magma but poisonous. Same as before, but it can rain poison balls. It inflicts poison. Also, bro looks like Muk from Pokemon-
Largemouth Hunee: Largemouth Magma but sweeter. It rains down hunee balls. It inflicts sticky.
Griffon: Bird resembling robot that can seal abilities. It also has pinpoint accuracy, as it usually never misses its targets. (BRO HAS AIMBOT)
Wild Griffon: Griffon but wilder. It becomes like this after the Demon King's appearance. It gets stronger and has more accuracy.
Death God: Some sort of ghostly entity that is somewhat an off-shoot of a Griffon. It can take souls.
Forest God: Like the Death God, it's a deer-like entity that closely resembles Griffons. However, these things guard forests.
Mowse: Rat-like monster with four ears. They use biting to attack.
Strong Mowse: Mowse but stronger.
Spiky Mowse: Mowse but spikier and stronger.
Rock Krab: Creatures almost completely compromised of rock. They use their pincers to attack and hide in their shells for better defense.
Magma Hand: Rock Krab but hotter. Its pincers are also stated to cut through steel and other alloys.
Shellcrabber: Rock Krab but with jewels.
Dragonalike: A creature that resembles a dragonfly and a dragon. It uses its tail to attack and also can sharpen its claws for a more powerful attack.
Wild Dragonalike: Dragonalike but wilder. It evolves from Dragonalikes after the Demon King's appearance. It's now even stronger.
Ghost Wyvernfly: A literal ghost entity that closely resembles Dragonalikes.
Treasure Cat: A fake treasure chest with low accuracy, but one-shot capabilities.
Exquisite Treasure Cat: Treasure Cat but fancier looking. Also, their accuracy increases.
Important Members:
Rocky: Young kit from the Sno Fox tribe who cured his family of an illness with Yuu's help. He attacks by biting, charging into opponents (can attack a row of horizontally aligned abilities while charging), howling (which basically applies Seal on opponents), freezing its teeth to do higher damage and inflict freeze, or just... transforming into Yuu (gaining all her stats and abilities). It is not explained how and why.
Cybat: Bat servant of the Dragon King who was there during the time of the Demon King. He uses his throwing knives to attack, can create gusts of wind (which also increases the speed of allies), make soundwaves (which occasionally puts opponents to sleep), provoke his opponents to get their attention (while raising his agility), and summon tornadoes (which are effective on airborne foes).
Arthur: Spider servant of the Dragon King who was there during the time of the Demon King. Gains a more powerful form when the Dragon King becomes the Demon King. Even to the point where he covers almost the entirety of Demon King Mountain in webbing.
Yuu
Daughter of the late hero. After hearing numerous stories about her father from the Dragon King, she longs to become a hero just like her father. She can light her sword on fire via magic to inflict massive damage to one (or multiple) opponents, attack in a way that basically guarantees that she attacks first, cut down vertically aligned enemies, and jump in front of allies to protect them from attacks. She can also get Disgaea scaling.
Also, since she (and her party members that are included in Dragon King's army: Cybat and Rocky) can use items and accessories, we will generally mention what the items and accessories can do (except for ones that can cure status effects as neither Asgore nor his army can apply status effects).
With accessories, Yuu and her party members can revive after their health reaches zero, increase the chance of critical attacks, passively heal, apply status effects to opponents after they get hit, increase damage against specific enemies, attack multiple enemies at once, let your attacks deal elemental damage, increase energy (that lets them perform special attacks), increase certain stats at the cost of a specific effect (depends on accessory), increase item effect, and more.
With items, Yuu and her party members can revive others, inflict status effects (either while attacking or just inflict status effects), increase/decrease stats, heal others, restore energy over time, apply damage nullification (for a short time), calm opponents down, attack enemies with shooting stars and seal opponents' abilities.
Resistances:
Asgore Dreemurr:
- Stat Manipulation: While Frisk could lower Asgore's stats at the start of the fight, at a certain point, Frisk wouldn't be able to lower Asgore's stats.
- Soul Manipulation: Since the body of a monster is made of magic and links directly to its soul, it should take soul attacks as physical ones.
- Radiation Manipulation: Monsters can drink Gamerblood Energy Drinks despite having radioactive waste. (A common drink item)
- Poison Manipulation: Monsters can stay indefinitely at the CORE, which is filled with ozone.
- Extreme Heat: Asgore can withstand the heat of Hotland, which is hot enough to evaporate water instantly.
- Extreme Cold: Asgore can withstand the coldness of Snowdin, and its snow and ice aren't affected by Hotland's heat.
Dragon King:
- Extreme Heat: Due to being an RPG boss, let alone the FINAL BOSS, the Dragon King is immune to all the status effects in the game, including burn. Also, he'd have to be resistant to or immune to his own fire, otherwise he would damage himself every time he uses it.
- Extreme Cold: What I said about Dragon King being an RPG boss above applies here.
- Poison Manipulation: RPG boss.
- Sleep Manipulation: Yes, Patrick. Dragon King is an RPG boss, so status effects are useless.
- Power Null/Power Sealing: RPG boss... again lol.
Feats
Asgore Dreemurr
Overall
- Is the king of the monsters
- Led the Monsters through a war against the humans
- Trained Undyne in combat so well that she eventually surpassed him
- Collected 6 Human souls
- Broke the MERCY button
- HE'S SANTA CLAUS???
He canonically smashed Toriel, which some fans wish they could do
Power
- Has an ATK rating of 80, which puts him above most monsters in the Underground.
- He is a boss monster, which is the strongest type of monster.
Speed
- Effortlessly dodged all of Undyne's attacks when in her youth. Also didn't fight back.
- ...That's it. (Without scaling ofc)
Scaling
Monsters
- Pyrope's bomb explosions (Wall Level)
- Knight Knight summons meteors (Small Building Level)
- Ice Cap creates ice spikes (Small Building Level)
- Knight Knight's meteors (Building Level)
- Tsunderplane outruns lightning (Massively Hypersonic+)
Boss Monsters
- Is stronger than Undyne, and could be comparable to her Undying Form, who can fight against Genocide Frisk.
- Undyne tanks her oven exploding (Small Building Level)
- Mettaton destroys a metal wall (Small Building Level)
- Mettaton EX's kicks (Small Building Level)
- Mettaton's big leg kick (Building Level)
- Flowey moves an elevator with great force (Large Building Level+)
- Papyrus runs across his house (Superhuman)
The Dragon King
Overall
- Is the king of the monsters
- Led the monsters in a war with the humans
- Reformed and became empathetic
- Raised Yuu to become a great hero
- Was the star of Year of the Dragon!
Somehow went past the limit of his thought bubble
Power
- Can shatter boulders with his flames. Yuu does it in the calc here, but he does do it early on in the game. (Small Building)
- As the Demon King, he can create a giant pillar of fire (Small Town)
- When he came back as the Demon King, he created earthquakes that spanned all the way to Hunee Crystal Woods (Small City)
- As the Demon King, he was going to burn two kingdoms to ash (Island)
Speed
- Managed to fly all the way from Demon King Mountain from his home without Yuu noticing (Transonic)
- As the Demon King, he was able to fly to cloud level in seconds (Hypersonic+)
Scaling
Monsters
Like with Asgore, due to being the king of the monsters, he should scale to/upscale any of his subjects.
- Magma Hands can cut through steel or other alloys
- Is stronger than the Wild Firey Lizzerd, which is hotter than the sun (Building)
- Arthur covered almost all of Demon King Mountain in webbing
- Stronger than Wildcat, who can clear clouds by singing (Mountain)
- Relative to or stronger than the Sno Seapony, which can create massive snowstorms (City)
Yuu/Party Members (Debatable)
Due to Demon King being the final boss of the game, he could potentially be relative to his daughter, or at least her party members.
- Can tank Flora's shooting star (Small Town)
- Relative to Cybat's throwing knives and soundwaves (Supersonic+)
- Relative to Flora's shooting star (High Hypersonic+)
- Relative to Rocky, who can move in tandem with Cybat's light balls (FTL+)
Weaknesses
Asgore Dreemurr
Like any other monster in Undertale, they do have their weaknesses. A monster's defense will weaken if it refuses to fight against its opponent. They get even more vulnerable if their opponent has a BIG desire to kill. Asgore often doesn't fight at his full power, and he may mess up when fighting someone if he knows it's wrong. Also, he is a bit naive.
The Dragon King
The Dragon King's horns are the source of his power, damaging or destroying one of them greatly decreases his power. When he is the Demon King, he becomes a mindless beast who cannot think straight, and taking too many injuries will cause his power to decrease.
Before the Verdict
Should Asgore get the Human Souls?
Also, before anyone says "But Flowey absorbed the Human Souls in the Pacifist and Netrual Routes, and he was fine." Yes, that is correct. However, he has two specific circumstances that likely had something to do with him being able to safely absorb the human souls. The first circumstance was that he was originally a flower who was injected with Determination, and due to this, he potentially had gotten used to it or at least had resistances to Determination's effects on monsters. The second, and more likely reason why it didn't affect him was due to Flowey NOT HAVING A SOUL. The monsters who were tested on had souls and failed, then Flowey, who never had a soul absorbed the human souls and was perfectly fine. While it could be a coincidence, the possibility of monsters needing to lack a soul to absorb human souls IS POSSIBLE, and Asgore having a soul means he can't recreate what Flowey did.
You all ALSO might mention "Didn't the entire plot of Asgore wanting to wage war on humanity and kill every human that fell in the Underground start with Asriel absorbing Chara's soul? Wouldn't that mean that Boss Monsters (like Asgore himself) can absorb human souls safely?" While yes, Asriel did absorb Chara's soul and was fine (otherwise he never would've been able to cross the barrier to the human village, then get back to the Underground before dying if he was melting like the other monsters who were injected with Determination), we don't know the specifics on WHY Asriel was fine. Heck, when Undyne had determination, she started to melt as the fight drew on in the Neutral Route and melted on her defeat in the Genocide Route, and that was from HER determination, not the determination of a human soul. Was Asriel fine due to being a Dreemurr? Did it have something to do with Chara's soul being special? Because Chara planned to sacrifice themselves so Asriel could absorb their soul, did Chara (or Chara's soul) give consent to Asriel absorbing it (Human souls can rebel despite being dead, as shown at the end of the Omega Flowey fight)? We don't know any of the specifics outside of "Asriel absorbed Chara's soul, left barrier, got attacked by humans, returned, and died.", so trying to make an argument on this would just be very confusing and mind-numbing. This also relies on the fact that Asgore KNOWS that Asriel absorbed Chara's soul and thus knows that he could absorb the human souls safely despite regular monsters melting when injected by determination. However, I doubt Asriel would absorb Chara's soul when Asgore was watching as Asgore wouldn't be happy seeing his son absorb the soul of his dead sibling, so Asriel likely absorbed Chara's soul when Asgore wasn't present (also the fact that the plan was made by Chara and Asriel, with them not wanting to let anyone know about it as everyone would've stopped them if ONE of the other monsters knew about their plans).
EVEN THEN, there's something like support that monsters likely can't absorb human souls safely.
Notice how it says, "Take its SOUL" instead of "Absorb its SOUL". If monsters could safely absorb souls, why don't they do that to either be able to safely deliver the soul to Asgore or become the monster that would absorb the seven souls and break the barrier? The answer is likely because they can't absorb it and thus took the soul and physically GAVE it to Asgore.
TLDR: While you COULD make an argument for giving Asgore the souls, there are so many loops and arguments that you'd have to go through for Asgore to get them and use them, and thus, it's easier and more likely for us to say that he SHOULDN'T get them.
Are magic lightning and lasers ACTUAL lightning and lasers?
Could Undertale characters get Deltarune scaling?
SANS WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU???
Why can't Asgore have Flowey?
Do Asgore and The Dragon King scale to the protagonists?
Now for the most part no. Both of them do not scale to the protagonists of their games whatsoever. It even is part of the story that both of them get defeated by them. For Asgore, no matter what path you take, he will be defeated by Frisk. Pacifist? Defeated. Neutral? Defeated. Genocide? Murdered. Now, for the Dragon King, it's a bit tricky. Now for base Dragon King, he does not scale, as Yuu defeated him in the story. However, when he becomes Demon King, there is a possibility that you could scale him to her, as she got stronger after her fight with him and had a rematch, but this time it was the Demon King. But for the most part, they aren't gonna scale to the protagonists of both series.
Should CKGH characters scale to the Fountain World?
However, for the sake of debatability, we won't be doing that here, although if you DO want to use it, Dragon King just bodies.
Why is The Dragon King being given The Demon King?
Should Dragon King scale to the Liar Princess?
Could Cruel King and Great Hero characters get Disgaea scaling?
To make a long story short, the Liar Princess showed up in the Makai Wars games, and with the Princess being terrified of Yuu and the fact that Yuu one-shots Racoons, something that the Princess hasn't done, there IS an argument of CKGH characters getting Disgaea scaling. However, due to Disgaea being Multi+ and Infinite Speed very broken, for the sake of fairness, we will not be giving anyone Disgaea scaling, as that would be even worse than giving them scaling to the Fountain World, and we already mentioned how bad THAT would be. This was mostly mentioned for the funny.
Art Section
(Track art done by🌸AnnaBee⭐/theASTARart on Twitter)
(Track art done by Chemical_Music_3906 on Reddit)
(Art made by 163B-ZGooey163 on Reddit)
(Art made by salor123 on Reddit)
(Icon made by 163B-ZGooey163 on Reddit)
Verdicts
For this MU, we decided to make two verdicts: 1v1 and an army fight. So, we will cover the two named combatants and see how they stack up compared to each other in the first verdict, then in the second verdict, cover their respective armies and see how the presence of their leaders will impact the army battle.
1v1 Battle
Stats
These two have shown why they're the respective kings of the games they're in. Starting with feats that they performed themselves, due to Asgore only having one fight and very little screen time, he doesn't get any direct feats while Dragon King has feats such as shattering boulders with his flames and flying to Demon King Mountain, which gets him to Building Level and Transonic respectively. However, due to them upscaling their subjects, we would be able to find where their true strength lies. For Asgore, scaling him to Flowey moving an elevator shaft and Tsunderplane outrunning lighting, we can get Asgore to Large Building+ and Massively Hypersonic+. On Dragon King's side, scaling to Sno Seapony who can create massive snowstorms and Cybat's soundwaves can get him to City and Supersonic+, with there being feats that can get him higher, such as Wildcat clearing clouds by singing (Mountain) or Rocky moving in tandem with light balls (FTL+). Even if you wanted to ignore the scaling feats, the moment Dragon King becomes Demon King, he'd AP stomp by a pretty large degree (burning two kingdoms to ash would make Demon King Island level), although Asgore would be faster if you don't use the Rocky feat (fastest feat Demon King had placed him at Hypersonic+, although using Berserk would make the speed gap smaller).
In short, Dragon King would take Strength/Durability while Asgore would take Speed (Unless you use the Rocky feat, in which case Dragon King would take the stat trinity).
Arsenal and Abilities
Let's get the obvious out of the way right now. Asgore would obviously take arsenal due to... having one. While it is simple, having armor and a trident is way better than having nothing for an arsenal. So now we get to abilities, which is way more interesting.
Starting with Asgore, his empathy manipulation wouldn't be useful in the fight as... they would be fighting. Outside of that, he has Blue and Orange attacks that would definitely affect the Dragon King due to him not knowing what to do against him and fire manipulation, with all of them being able to affect the soul. Due to Dragon King not having any resistance to soul manipulation, it could bypass his durability, making the power gap useless. On the Dragon King's side, he has fire manipulation and the ability to fly, and as the Demon King, he has attacks that can inflict his opponents with lots of status effects, such as Burn, Chill, Sticky, Poison, and Seal, and there's the chance of him landing Critical Hits, which ignore durability. So, who takes abilities?
To start things off, Asgore's Blue and Orange attacks would only be useful when they're directly next to each other, so if Dragon King decides to take to the skies, Asgore can't use them. Also, while both have fire manipulation, Asgore's fire would be better due to it being able to attack the soul and his heat resistance helping Asgore deal with the "Burn" status effect, although Dragon King could avoid Asgore's fire by... flying (maybe the force of Dragon King flapping his wings could redirect the fire, but that would just be a theoretical that won't have any impact on the debate). Also, while Asgore doesn't have a resistance to durability negation via Critical Hits, those happen by chance and aren't something that Dragon King could reliably land. So, as the Dragon King, he would get outmatched by Asgore's abilities, with his flight being the only reason he could avoid them. AS THE DRAGON KING, because things change when the Demon King gets involved.
While Asgore can still harm the Demon King via soul damage. the Demon King also has status effects that could be inflicted on Asgore, and while Asgore's resistances can help him mitigate the effects of most of them, the big two he can't resist or mitigate are Sticky and Seal. Sticky would slow Asgore down, but the big thing that it would do is prevent Asgore from taking his turn (it would basically stun him) and would make him more vulnerable to damage. As for Seal, Asgore doesn't have any resistance to power nullification, and heck, ALL of his attacks include magic, so once Demon King lands one of his power-nullifying attacks, the monster king of the Underground would become a sitting duck.
In short, Asgore would take Arsenal and Dragon King would take Abilities.
Tertiary Factors
This is a relatively straightforward segment to discuss. In terms of intelligence, both seem to be around equal due to them being able to run a kingdom, but Asgore would take the advantage since Demon King loses his intelligence and becomes berserk. In terms of experience, it's very difficult to say. While Asgore has definitely been alive for longer than Dragon King, all we know for sure is that both of them have been in a war against humanity and lost, but we were never told how long either war was. The safest bet here would be to have the experience be a tie. In terms of skill, Asgore would take the advantage due to the Demon King's rage making him act all berserk. However, there's one final important thing that we need to mention. You know how earlier, in Asgore's disadvantages we said that monsters are vulnerable to opponents with a big desire to kill (aka a high LV)? If there's ANYONE who would have a high LV, it would be the one that nearly destroyed all of humanity if he wasn't stopped in time. While you could make arguments for Dragon King not having a high LV due to him wanting to be better, once the Demon King comes out, that high LV of his would leave Asgore in an EXTREMELY VULNERABLE position. Overall, Asgore takes Intelligence and Skill while they tie in Experience, and the Dragon King can take advantage of the monsters' vulnerability to high LV as the Demon King.
Army Fight
General Troops
Alright, now for the big one. We are going to compare their armies. Now, going off numbers alone, The Dragon King takes this, as he almost has double the amount Asgore has (28 < 48. Not counting important members). And in terms of firepower, The Dragon King definitely has the edge. While some of Asgore's army members are useful, with Knight Knight being able to summon the sun and moon for meteor attacks, or Tsunderplane's lightning-fast speed, it just doesn't stack up to The Dragon King's heavy hitters. For starters, we have the Sno Seapony who can create city-spanning snowstorms, or the treasure cats having a bite that can one-shot. He also has entities like Death Gods who can steal souls, or Ghost Wyvernfly who is a literal ghost. Not to mention the more versatility with different status effects and whatnot, The Dragon King takes this category.
Heavy Hitters
Now onto their heavy hitters or their important members. Now, on the surface, you would naturally think it would go to Asgore, as he has more important members on his team, and UNDYNE THE FLIPPING UNDYING. But, it doesn't stack up to The Dragon King's heavy hitters. For starters, the royal guard (including Papyrus) isn't going to do much, as they aren't as strong as Rocky, Cybat, or Yuu, who have a multitude of great abilities, with Rocky even being able to transform into Yuu. It mainly boils down to Undyne and Mettaton vs Rocky, Cybat, Yuu, and Arthur. Undyne is pretty strong and is trained in combat and is a tactical strategist in fighting, and Mettaton has a bunch of crazy abilities to work with, but the gap is too much. With Rocky and Cybat scaling to Yuu, and Yuu herself being very powerful, there isn't really much of a contest. Undyne could transform into her Undying form to give them a little more trouble, but they still are more powerful than her, and she will eventually succumb and melt. Arthur as of now wouldn't be able to do much besides webbing up opponents. The Dragon King takes this category.
How would their leaders impact the fight?
The final part of this section. Basically, this is just saying, how would their leaders help out with the fight. For Asgore...there isn't much or anything he can provide them. I mean he can give commands, but it doesn't really help compared to The Dragon King. For the Dragon King, when he becomes The Demon King, his army gets STRONGER. Some members evolve into stronger forms, in which they are insane.
For instance, the Wild Fiery Lizzerd becomes even hotter, reaching temperatures that are hotter than the sun to incinerate their foes, or the Wild Griffon, who becomes stronger with their pinpoint accuracy, and the Wild Dragonalike, they become stronger, which they can buff themselves with their sharpening ability. Arthur also receives an OMEGA BUFF. He is capable of fighting on his own and can use his webs to incapacitate his foes. Let's also mention that HE WEBBED THE ENTIRETY OF DEMON KING MOUNTAIN ON HIS OWN. So, in terms of who can bring something to the table, The Dragon King takes this.
Conclusion
Asgore
"Truthfully...I don't want power. I don't want to hurt anyone. I just wanted everyone to have hope."
Advantages:
- Faster if you don't buy the Rocky feat...
- Better intelligence when up against the Demon King...
- SOUL manipulation can bypass durability
- Blue and Orange attacks could be a surprise
- A better leader when Demon King is around
- Has an actual weapon
- Can mitigate most status effects due to his resistance
- HE IS KING FLUFFYBUNS HIMSELF
Equal:
- Experience
- ... but is similar in intelligence to Dragon King
Disadvantages:
- ...but not by a lot (If you buy the Rocky feat, Asgore gets blitzed)
- Weaker
- Less durable
- Inferior hax and abilities (Seal would be DEVASTATING on Asgore and his army)
- Less powerful army
- Numbers disadvantage in army
- Inferior range (for himself and his army)
- Is vulnerable to Demon King's high LV
- He just wanted to read comic books all day and play Nintendo :(
The Dragon King
Advantages:
- Stronger
- More durable
- Faster if you buy the Rocky feat...
- Better hax and abilities (Seal is OP, and some of his troops can use it as well)
- More numbers in army
- Stronger army overall
- More versatile army
- Way better range (for himself and his army)
- Can exploit Asgore's vulnerability to high LV as Demon King
- One of the most W dads in fiction
Equal:
- Has equal experience
- Is similar in intelligence...
Disadvantages:
- ...but is slower if you don't
- ... until he becomes the Demon King
- No resistance to SOUL manipulation
- Most status effects would be ineffective
- Not a great commander as the Demon King
- Doesn't have any weapons
- Victim of Rule 34
Asgore and his army is certainly impressive, and their ability to damage the soul can make up for the power disadvantage they have, but when we look at what Dragon King and his army have, it's way too much for them. While Asgore and his army can negate durability, they are always in danger of getting one shot due to the power gap, and while Asgore and his army are faster (unless you buy the Rocky feat), it isn't to such a ludicrous degree that Dragon King and his army would never be able to touch them. So, it basically revolves around us looking at other categories, with Dragon King taking the important ones. Specifically, Seal is a very HARD COUNTER to Asgore and his army, since none of them have any resistance to power nullification. If one of Asgore's troops or Asgore himself gets power nulled, they're essentially useless for the rest of the fight, and with the massive range that Dragon King and some of his troops have, that slight speed disadvantage wouldn't mean much in the fight. Asgore and his army put up a good fight with their speed, skill, and devastating soul attacks, but the Dragon King and his army have the power, range, and counters needed to overthrow the King of the Underground. Asgore DREEMED of victory, but Dragon King closed the book on him.
The winner is The Dragon King.
Final Tally
Asgore (0) - Poor King Fluffybuns 😭😭😭
Dragon King (2) - MegaGojiraGX, Chemical_Music_3906
Dragon King my beloved.
ReplyDeleteI do have a few notes, the blog overall is really good! I'm not sure if y'all appreciate tips but imma leave some for you.
Delete1: I do think since you're not using Disgaea but addressing you aren't in the QNA it'd just be better formatting to say you're not using it out of fairness and fun at the start instead.
2: Vulcan's Lightning Feat should probably be put down as 'debatable' because not only is it called Thunder, but Asriel's Lightning looks different from it by a wide margin.
3: WHAT DO Y'ALL MEAN DRAGON R34 😭also ngl Yuu addition is foul poor Asgore
Outside of that the blog is really solid!!!! Much love it's great to see the series spread.